Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 02, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Not so much a suggestion as a way to get the community's opinion as a whole on this issue, because I've seen people say several different things about how to make the dervish compete with the sin and warrior (both in wielding scythes and in general). I figure future suggestions on the matter might garner more support if they appeal to people's ideas on what should be done.

Gift3d · Aug 02, 2009, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Give them a consistent way to manage energy and make the effects of mysticism useful. There's great skills in mysticism, just the effect of the actual attribute is absolutely terrible and very inconsistent.

So what i'll say, is find a way to have mysticism contribute to managing energy well.

zhongzh · Aug 02, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

They should make the energy gain from mysticism occur when an enchantment is cast, not when it ends.

Lishy · Aug 02, 2009, 05:49 AM // 05:49

I posted this earlier in another thread.
Note that the attributes arranged in investment like 0..12..16

Quote:

I got some ideas for skills.

Avatar of Balthazar
Cost 15
Activation 2
Recharge 60
Concise: (10...74 seconds.) You gain +33% increased attack speed, have a base 10% armor penetration with attacks, have +%25...40...55 chance to critical, and you gain 4 energy whenever you successfully land a critical hit. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

They have the critical bonus and energy management of the assassin, as well as armor penetration that a warrior gains access to and a reliable IAS.

Might sound a little overpowered, but besides the IAS, all it is is a little bit from the primary from both the assassin and the warrior.
It also fits AoB quite well since it is debated the worst Avatar and Balthazar is more about blowing shit up.
And since literally other physical profession in the game is very efficient in wielding different weapons (Even the paragon!) with the exception of the Dervish, they need some skill functionality changes.

Heart of Holy Flame
Cost 10
Activation 1/4
Recharge 60
Concise: (10..20..30 seconds.) Whenever you deal physical damage to an enemy, all adjacent foes to you suffer 0..10..15 holy damage. End effect: inflicts Burning condition (1..4..6 seconds) and deals 0..55..65 holy damage to adjacent foes.

The trick here is to purposely make it synergize with Hundred Blades sword builds, Scythes in general, and AoE axes. Because it is tied to Mysticism, this prevents other professions from abusing it. And because of how Dervishes (are supposed) to work, it keeps the concept of enchantment juggling. You can either use it for the damage bonus or use it in an enchantment juggle if they revert Pious Assault. And because it has such a high recharge though, you're forced to bring Eternal Aura, emphasizing the need to juggle enchantments.

Aura of Holy Might
Cost 10
Activation 3/4
Recharge 25
Concise: (20 seconds.) You deal +20...30% damage with your scythe. Initial effect: nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage. End effect: nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage. For every 5 ranks in mysticism, you gain 1 energy whenever your attacks deal elemental damage.

This isn't self explanatory, so allow me to explain. Although not mentioned, it converts your attacks to holy damage and has priority. This means it prevented combining Mantra of Frost with Avatar of Grenth in PvE, which was another reason not to use a dervish.
Basically, the change is that it wouldn't convert your attacks to holy damage, which means slightly nerfing UWSC without killing it, but it would reward dervishes using non-physical damage due to the vast amount of skills converting your skills to elemental. Would have great synergy with Ebon Dust Aura and the like while still not giving you the energy bonus if you decide to use a Heart of Holy Flame based build with the buff I mentioned.

Lyssa's Assault
Cost 10
Cast 3/4
Recharge 6
Concise: Deals +5..17 damage. Deal +10..23 more damage and interrupts if hit foe was casting a spell.

Dervishes need an interrupt skill. And the old skill was kind of redundant since it couldn't be used for energy unless by a Ranger.

Arcane Zeal
Cost 10
Activation 1
Recharge 4
Concise: (10 seconds.) You gain 1..3 Energy and 5...17 health for each enchantment on you whenever you cast a spell.

Just a simple buff to compete with Ether Renewal, giving possibilities of Dervish Healers and buffing Orders Dervishes, giving Derv primaries another option. This may look like a clone skill, but the difference lies in the duration and recharge.
It may also bring Dervish heroes more into play, perhaps as the next "N/rt healer" due to the massive energy gain.

These are my proposed skill buffs that may help buff the Dervish. Of course, what's most important is that they REVERT PIOUS ASSAULT. And my skill suggestions don't have to be down to the number. They're just concepts.

Bob Slydell · Aug 02, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Uhhhh.. I Didn't know Dervishes were broken. I've been playing mine since NF came out, nothing wrong with him.

reaper with no name · Aug 02, 2009, 06:27 AM // 06:27

The problem is that dervishes suck. Outside of a very small number of very niche builds, anything a D/X can do a W/D or A/D can do better, because they can use the dervish's skills better than the dervish can. Read a few threads in the dervish section of the campfire and you'll see what I mean. It's really quite sad.

Chthon · Aug 02, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Interesting topic. So you want to make dervishes not suck?...

First and foremost, remove the silly damage type conversion from AoHM and the avatar skills so that dervishes can participate in the MoP/Barbs/Orders(/GDW/SoH/etc.) paradigm that makes physicals king of damage in GW. That alone would probably make them worth using.

Second, a decent IAS skill.

Third, something to bring up adrenaline speed for SY! spamming.

Fourth, some knockdown would be nice.

Roupe · Aug 02, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Increase their armor to that of warriors. and reduce the armor buffs of their skills to compensate for balance issues.

Owik Gall · Aug 02, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Anet needs to decide which concept the derv should stick to. Either keeping enchantments up, or stripping them. The way they are now they have mixed concept skills that contradict each other. For example you have a good set of enchantment skills that are worth keeping up, yet the attack skills that benefits from enchantments are crap. There are great attack skills, but they need to disenchant in order for the skills to work properly and the enchantment skills the dervs can afford to lose are crap. Either the ending effects does little, or the enchant takes long to charge, but the attack skills that should syncro with those enchantments charge quicker. Basically they made the dervishes deal with builds that can only have one or a few good derv skills mixed with really awful skills. If that was supposed to balance the dervs so they won't be op, well, guess what; it just made the dervs a real crappy class over all.

I get the impression that the dervs were a mistake class anet made because the general concept can only yield two ways. Either they can suck, or be over powered because if they fix every prob there is on the dervs, even though it's only for PvE, the class would overall be over powered and dominate PvE in any which way. I know the same goes for every other class in the game, but this is such a delicate class that if one perfect skill is changed there goes the dervs usefulness. Period.

This is not to say they are weak in everything, really. They do good in some ways and still be crucial for a team, provided that there's a team build that works with a derv. This class is less favored because it has the least uses than all the other classes. It even gets out ranked by tanks, which is what this class was supposed to replace. How sad.

Change the concept of the Dervs. That's the only reasonable change Anet can do for it. Make it so ALL skills work well together, not force the derv to have one good skill with many crappy ones because it would be the only choice for the derv to make a "decent" build.

Slasher of Darkness · Aug 02, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

I posted this earlier in another thread.

Me likey the AoB ^^

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Well, Mesmers have a similar issue - some of their skills are ones where they want to let the enemy do their thing and get punished for it, others stop the enemy from doing so. It does essentially split the Dervish into to subprofessions, though - one that wants to keep the enchantments up and fights in a fairly conventional manner, one that throws enchantments off and tends to play like a PBAOE bomb with a suitable melee weapon.

My answer is "give it a niche". This will probably involve buffing - it HAS a niche (dedicated PBAOE specialist) but that's been nerfed both directly and by comparison with other builds that have been buffed. However, if it's just buffed without something that makes it special, then we may just have the Dervish remain underpowered until the balance point is crossed and suddenly it's the Dervish that's overpowered and the others that are weak in comparison.

paddymew · Aug 02, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Mysticism doesn't grant half as much energy on a dervish as Critical Strikes grant on an Assassin or Expertise reduces by for Rangers. The small heal is almost insignificant. The only thing Mysticism is good for right now is Arcane Orders or Patient Spirit spamming.

Demonlord Matt · Aug 02, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

i absolutely adore my dervish and he is fun to play, but the problem is that he isnt rly profitable besides droks running. They need to make dervs be able to farm something. Im not talking being able to destroy everything in DoA, but something which would make them worth all the time i put into mine. They definitely do need to buff them above other scythe wielders, b/c they rly cant compare to a/d or w/d. I dont rly care whether they change a/d or w/d provided they give dervs a good buff like they did rits

riktw · Aug 02, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

well, make mysticism usefull, its really really useless.
i have a derv, and mysticism makes my cry every time i see it.
skills in it are nice, effect is lame.
for every rank in mysticism you get 10 health when you cast an enchantment and for every 2 ranks 1 energy when an enchantment ends.
healing when you cast, energy when it ends, and an decent amouth, not freaking 15 health.
maybe 10 is a bit much and 5 is better.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Hrrmn. Maybe an inbuilt Symbiosis-like effect? Give the Dervish a bonus to max health equal to the amount they heal when the enchantment ends?

(And, in case it isn't clear, keeping the heal at the end, so they don't die from enchantment-stripping when at low health.)

Konker2020 · Aug 02, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

I personally don't see a problem with Dervishes, I think they function perfectly well. But, there are builds that cause certain build to outweigh the Dervish. So I suggest minor buffs, specifically to Mysticism. But it would need to be a buff that isn't overpowered and something that balances out the Dervish to an average level (in relation to other professions). I think they are pretty decently balanced as is, but they could use a small buff I guess.

Catchphrase · Aug 02, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Nothing wrong with mysticism but the skills which interact with mysticism are doing so very poorly. Dervish should be self ripping their own enchantments, not trying to cover it. Anet should provide incentives to encourage this playstyle by reworking the end effects of short recharge enchantments, give bonus for removing long recharge enchantments prematurely and empower the effects of self enchantment removal skills upon an enchantment is sacrificed.

Evasion Twenty · Aug 02, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Zealous Vow+Vamp Scythe+Mystic Vigor+AoHM=wtfpwnage

Short · Aug 02, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evasion Twenty

Zealous Vow+Vamp Scythe+Mystic Vigor+AoHM=wtfpwnage

Mystic Vigor? wat. Use a monk. Also sins do it better whilst being able to take DW that doesn't strip an enchantment and not taking up an elite skill because their primary attrib is actually good.
Wounding Strike+Vamp Scythe+Way of the Master+AoHM=wtfpawnage

zwei2stein · Aug 02, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Hrrmn. Maybe an inbuilt Symbiosis-like effect? Give the Dervish a bonus to max health equal to the amount they heal when the enchantment ends?

(And, in case it isn't clear, keeping the heal at the end, so they don't die from enchantment-stripping when at low health.)

Dervishes already have inbuild "symbiosis effect" - their armor has inherent +25 hp efect.

----

Anyhow, If we are talking PvE imba i would like this: "While you are enchanted, each time your attack skill hits more that one foe, you gain 1 energy and 5 health for each foe per 8 points of mysticism".

will not upset pvp (unless oppositon is really dumb)

is more in line with how dervishes are played, gives enough energy to wtfspam attacks just like endurance warrior. as bonus, will be able to wtfabuse axe aoes.